Jan. 30, 2025

Faithspotting "A Complete Unknown"

Faithspotting

Kenny and Mike are joined by friend and regular guest Rev. Eric Folkerth to discuss the biopic film of Bob Dylan A Complete Unknown.

Kenny and Mike are joined by friend and regular guest Rev. Eric Folkerth to discuss the biopic film of Bob Dylan A Complete Unknown. Directed by James Mangold, the film stars Timothee Chalamet as Dylan, with Ed Norton as Pete Seeger, Elle Fanning as Sylvie Russo, and Monica Barbaro as Joan Baez.  

Based on the book Dylan Goes Electric book Elijah Wald, A Complete Unknown begins as Bob Dylan arrives in New York and begins his rise in the world of Folk music, and the reaction after he had become a folk music star when he decides to expand into folk rock music, by "going electric." This new direction was introduced at the 1965 Newport Folk Music Festival and is the climax of the film.

As the film moves toward the Newport clash, it documents Dylan's struggle against being labeled, boxed in, and controlled by the music industry as well as his initial fans. The film also shows his relationships with Sylvie Russo and Folk legend Joan Baez, as well as with Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie.

Episode Guest Eric Folkerth is Sr, Pastor at Kessler Park United Methodist Church in Dallas and is a singer/songwriter and blogger.  His website is ericfolkerth.com 

Faith Reflected:

Expansive verses restricted worship, experiences and understanding of God.

Worship Wars happen when individuals and groups get comfortable and set in their way of worship and deny the validity of other expressions and languages of worship that may better speak to others.

The benefit of a variety of ways of worship which lead to enriching understanding and experiences of God.

Declaring and accepting purity of worship is a means to control the experience, theological understanding and faith development of others. 

Christ Figures in art.

Luke 4 and the resistance to Jesus demonstrating God's love of other people and nations.

The early church in the Book of Acts also faced this struggle.

 

Transcript

Faithspotting Episode 111 A Complete Unknown 1-31-25

Kenny Dickson: [00:00:00] I'm Kenny Dickson.

Mike Hatch:And I'm Mike Hatch. Welcome to Faith Spotting.

Film Audio: I had lessons as a kid, you know, normal lessons. I write too. I'm not sure there's a way to learn that.

Too hard. Excuse me?

You tried too hard to write.

Really?

Yeah, if you're asking.

I wasn't.

Sunsets and seagulls, smell of buttercups. Your signs are like an oil painting at the dentist's office. You're kind of an a hole, huh?

Yeah, I guess.

Mike Hatch: There's a clip from A Complete [00:01:00] Unknown you can see it in theaters right now. And at your local Academy Award show here, what, at the beginning of March? Coming up in March. Hi, I'm Mike Hatch.

Kenny Dickson: I'm Kenny Dickon.

Mike Hatch: And this is Faith Spotting. And Kenny, you need to introduce our friend here today. Yes,

Kenny Dickson: we have a special episode because we have one of our favorite guests with us, uh, the Reverend. Right? Reverend or just Reverend? The Reverend. We have Eric Folker th there.

Kenny Dickson: Eric is a good friend of ours, a long time friend of mine. He is the United Methodist pastor and the pastor at Kessler Park United Methodist Church. This is, I think, your fourth time. Maybe with us, he knows movies. He knows faith in, uh, particularly he knows music and especially he knows folk music when we talk about movies and music and that, uh, Eric is our go to guy.

Kenny Dickson: So thank you for being here, Eric.

Eric Folkerth: And happy to be back.

Kenny Dickson: Yeah. I think it's so cool that you could show up for this one because I knew that you're going to be able to take a big bite out of this one. And one of these days we got to work up like a [00:02:00] sort of music trivia night or something. I'm curious to see who would win that.

Kenny Dickson: I'm not really sure. That would be pretty good. It would not be me. Yeah, it wouldn't be you. It depends

Eric Folkerth: on which era of the question. Exactly. Yeah. For

Mike Hatch: me, anything past maybe about the eighties, nineties, I'd be in trouble. We would,

Eric Folkerth: I think we would all three be in trouble. Oh, yeah, that's for sure. Very true.

Mike Hatch: Hopefully we'd all be in trouble. All right, Kenny. So go ahead and give us a rundown, although pretty much everybody knows what this is about, but

Kenny Dickson: yeah. So, uh, a complete unknown is the biopic, biopic, however you'd like to pronounce it, of Bob Dylan, and it's based off a book, uh, Dylan Goes Electric. Tells his story coming up at how we began in the business.

Kenny Dickson: And then up until what? 1968, I think, yeah, mid sixties and it's his, the beginning. And then also then once he had been established, a lot of what we're going to talk about, at least a little bit. In my conversation with the faith is then when he changed and went from being your typical folk music [00:03:00] unplugged to going electric and What that wrought that's where we are.

Kenny Dickson: Okay,

Mike Hatch: so let's go around way. I'm gonna hear what everybody has to say about it

Kenny Dickson: Well, it's oh it stars Timothee Chalamet as Dylan and then Ed Norton plays Pete Seeger another folk artist and Al Fanning You His first girlfriend, Sylvia Ruscio, and then Monica Barbero is Joan Baez, somebody we may have known.

Mike Hatch: So Kenny, I didn't realize this until I left the theater, but don't cheat on your phone. Do you know what movie Monica became famous in? Monica Barbero.

Eric Folkerth: Oh,

Mike Hatch: this is a big trivia question. I, I should know cause I looked at, I looked her up and no top gun Maverick. Do. Oh yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Mike Hatch: You want to press Kenny's buttons? Just say those three words, top gun Maverick. And that's it. Yeah. But I will tell you though, this is a testament to how good of an actress she is. I had to look at that information. I did not remember it until I left the theater to look at the information. She [00:04:00] was that good.

Mike Hatch: In my opinion, she was, she was outstanding. Everybody in this movie was in my

Eric Folkerth: opinion, super well cast. Yes.

Kenny Dickson: Well, and it's, it's been rewarded for Academy Awards, , Timothee Chalamet uh, for best actor, uh, Ed Norton, who I just, uh, astounding. For supporting actor and then Monica Barbaro. And it was sort of down between her or Elle and I think they Elle it was, could have been easily been as picked.

Kenny Dickson: I think she deserves L deserve it more than some of the other people and other films that were nominated. So just a, a very solid jumping ahead a little bit, very

Mike Hatch: solid film. I do agree with you. This is another one that Kenny says, you know, this is going to win a lot of awards. And I was like, yeah, you're right.

Mike Hatch: And I was like, well, how'd you probably want to see it. Yeah, you're right. Okay. I guess I'll see it. So I went to go see it with my wife and my daughter. I don't know about you guys, but the thing that I enjoyed most about it was okay. Yeah, the acting and it's a fascinating story. But when I was a kid, and especially when I was getting into classic rock and folk and things like this, because one of the [00:05:00] first groups I went to go see when I was a kid was Peter, Paul and Mary.

Mike Hatch: And that kind of brought me into the full folk scene. And then after that, it was Chicago and the Beach Boys, which last night I caught the Beach Boys. It was cool. A neat 360 with that. But one of the things I used to love to do when I was a kid is to imagine what life was like back when these artists were breaking into the industry.

Mike Hatch: And I love movies that take you there. And that's exactly what this movie did at the beginning of, yeah, he's in Greenwich Village. And you know about early 60s just such a cool time everything that was going on and you Really were able to live that so much But especially through the creative process and I remember at the very end of the film melissa said to me She's like, what is the deal with dylan?

Mike Hatch: I mean, he just he just did his own thing I said, yeah, that is the charm of dylan. He just doesn't care Yeah, he doesn't you know in one of the best scenes in the movie I'm, sure we'll chat about is when he releases his electric self to the public and You He just doesn't give a crap. He just, this is who I am.

Mike Hatch: And one of the things that I loved, and we could talk about the music throughout this, because not [00:06:00] only was it his music, but so much other music was used throughout the film, but it was the kinks that he was playing. The kinks. And as soon as they went to the scene, I started hearing the kinks. I was like, Oh, is this going to kind of usher him in and break the news and like behind the scenes?

Mike Hatch: And it was, I was just like, I love the kinks. And they even

Kenny Dickson: say he was at the promoter. This was at the Newport festival and they got the purest. Came in and goes, are you going to play this crap? He goes, it's Alan Lomax in the movie.

Eric Folkerth: It's Alan Lomax that they make do that.

Kenny Dickson: But he said, no, it's the kinks.

Kenny Dickson: And so exactly.

Mike Hatch: It's funny too, because the first artist that Maddie and Melissa, because they're huge fans of her, they talked about after this. And when I was saying, yeah, he just did his own thing. You know, he was just going with his own flow. He was creating his own music and he still does that. You know, after dozens of albums is Taylor Swift.

Mike Hatch: Same exact thing in a lot of ways, just does her own thing. And, and, you know, hopefully people will come along, but if not, this is the direction that she's going in. And you're welcome to come along for the ride. And obviously people have with Taylor Swift. They, you know, did as well with [00:07:00] Bob Dylan. I thought that was great.

Kenny Dickson: If you're hesitant to see this, I was not a Dylan fan. Right. I really wasn't into folk music. I, cause a lot of it, cause I thought, saw it as, you know, Peter, Paul and Mary. And it, it just, I didn't care about Puff the Magic Dragon, you know,

Eric Folkerth: and obviously that they're not even really in the film, which is fascinating.

Eric Folkerth: Yeah. Yeah. It is kind of a, something to think about.

Kenny Dickson: Yeah. And so, so I, I wasn't a big fan. Never have been, but yeah. I was shocked at how much the music I knew, you know, I hear it and all that. And it certainly held my attention. Yeah. And it's obviously, you know, when we talk about music, when we talk about rock or really any music from the fifties on that's popular in any way, whatever genre you're a miss, if you don't look at.

Kenny Dickson: So what were your

Mike Hatch: thoughts when you saw it, Eric? And you're sitting there, you sit down, you got your popcorn, you got your drink, and you're looking at the screen and it starts. What were your thoughts about it?

Eric Folkerth: Oh, this was really a special film for me. Uh, as you guys know, [00:08:00] and we've talked about before, I kind of hang out in the folk music world.

Eric Folkerth: My, my musician friends in the musical world are mostly folk artists. I've met Joan Baez. I've actually shared a stage with her a long time ago. Wow. Uh, down, uh, in fact, I actually had a protest in, uh, Crawford back in the Bush days, uh, Crawford, Texas. Yeah. If you remember Camp Casey and Cindy Sheehan, that was a very Protests in the mid two thousands.

Eric Folkerth: And they asked me to come play a few songs. And Joan Baez was the main thing that day. And Martin Sheen was there. It was kind of, kind of a big deal. So yeah, I've, I know people who know Dylan. I know a lot of people who know Pete Seeger, really many of my friends knew Pete Seeger. So this was real special.

Eric Folkerth: And the story of this film, you know, the film is based on a book called Dylan goes electric. Bob Dylan's been around. What? 50 years now in music. This is, as you noted, this is three years, four years [00:09:00] of his career, but it's this like seminal moment. And this moment is still talked about in the folk music world to this day.

Eric Folkerth: My tribe, I go to the Coral Folk Festival every year. It is basically the Newport Folk Festival of this part of the world, basically. You know, it's been going on for about 40 years, and uh, Newport is iconic. That year, when Dylan went electric, it really did, it changed rock music, it changed folk rock, and it changed folk music forever.

Eric Folkerth: It was a, an absolute, Seminole moment. And again, I can't emphasize this enough. When I started hanging out in the folk music world, when I went to Kervel, people told this story. I heard this story from other musicians. I heard it from people who were there or for people who were, there's a character in the movie, David Childress.

Eric Folkerth: Von rock, who is a known folk guy, friend of mine, who he is now gone named Jack Hardy. I'm just going to name check. Jack Hardy. He, he lived in Greenwich [00:10:00] village was a folk musician there. And he would tell these stories of these old days. So this was real stuff that happened in real time. People that happened.

Eric Folkerth: And, uh, as you guys have already said, I think everybody in the cast did a remarkable job. I think Chalamet did a really good job with Dylan. I was super skeptical, uh, how that would go. And I think he did great, amazing. Ed Norton's Pete Seeger was spot on. I mean, just absolutely spot on. Okay. Here's what you think.

Film Audio: Hey up, oh, a wim a way, a wim a way, a wim a way. You try it. Hey up, oh, a wim a way, a wim a way, a wim a way. Very good. That's fine as wine and right on time. Now those of you who can't sing that low, we're going to make you sopranos. A wim a way, a wim a way. ŁimoŁ, ŁimoŁ, ŁimoŁ, ŁimoŁ, ŁimoŁ. Try [00:11:00] it. ŁimoŁ, ŁimoŁ, ŁimoŁ, ŁimoŁ.

Film Audio: Very nice. Now add back in the low. There

Film Audio: we are.

Eric Folkerth: He really did embody that. And as I understand, he may have met Pete Seeger and knew Pete Seeger in real life. Yeah. Mm hmm. It was a very loving portrayal. And I thought, uh, Joan Baez, Barbero did amazing with Joan Baez. They just all did an amazing thing. So it was very personal for me to watch this movie and to see these connections between this music that I love, some musicians who were contemporaries of these folks and this kind of genre [00:12:00] that's still very important to me.

Eric Folkerth: So, uh, to this day, uh, there is still. There are still folk music purists to this day who would still tell you you're not supposed to play electric. You're not supposed to play with a lot of background. I mean at Kerville they have a, they have a no drums rule around the campfires. Part of that is so you can sleep.

Eric Folkerth: But part of that is this whole debate purity of it this purity debate that still goes on I think it'd be fair to say that most people are kind of over that There are all sorts of bands that play the main stage there at Kerville And and you know Even the the music that I do is more of a kind of a folk rock than pure folk But it all comes from that moment that moment I I love that they lifted that up in a Hollywood film for us all to remember You Because that's the moment, you know, we, we had the Laurel Canyon film that was a lot of fun.

Eric Folkerth: This is the moment before that. This is the [00:13:00] moment before the Laurel Canyon explosion. This is when Dylan goes electric and all of a sudden everybody goes, Oh wait, we can combine these things. We can combine. Woody Guthrie music and rock. And what would that be like? And then that whole thing, the Laurel Canyon thing, the singer songwriters of the seventies, as we've talked about before, it all comes from that moment.

Eric Folkerth: So yeah, this, this film meant a lot to me. I was so excited to see it. And I think it really is well done.

Kenny Dickson: Well, I thought about you because I remember when we did that show, you were a little, I don't want to say mad, but you were disappointed that Seeger was it. Yeah, included much of that one little clip of Pete Seeger at the beginning, and you were a little disappointed that he was not included.

Kenny Dickson: And so I thought of you there. Yeah,

Eric Folkerth: well, and this film is so loving in that this film does such a good job of locating and even pulling in Woody Guthrie. So that story about Dylan meeting Woody Guthrie [00:14:00] is true. Apparently they only met once, you know, the, the film, and it does seem to go back. I apologize.

Eric Folkerth: Is it where they kind of had some relationship? That's not really probably true, but, but they really did meet once. And, uh, Woody was apparently pretty taken with him. So, I mean, that appears to be true from what I've heard.

Mike Hatch: This is one of those times though, in a film that I was okay with them. I think it fit the

Eric Folkerth: story.

Mike Hatch: Well, and it gelled everything together. It gelled everything together. Everything went back to it. That relationship. I love that. And it helped

Eric Folkerth: to draw that line, that line of songwriting that goes back Woody Guthrie. So you, you got to remember Woody and Woody goes back. Decades and then Pete Seeger is of a next generation from Woody.

Eric Folkerth: Really Pete Seeger and Peter, Paul and Mary and all those groups from Greenwich village and, and all of them, and then you come forward to Dylan and then you come forward to Laurel and then it flips kind of flips out to California to the Laurel Canyon, Laurel

Kenny Dickson: Canyon. There's that little scene where David Crosby is saying to Bob [00:15:00] Dylan's son.

Kenny Dickson: Well, and then Dylan came and, you know, and so he said, well, what's Dylan. Bob. Yeah. Right. So, so you're right. It really does. And you know, when this gets to streaming, you know, it might be fun to see this and see it would be a good two back to back films to see. Yeah. And another, and another one, not that we're going to get away from this too long, but I couldn't help it in the back of my head, have inside Llewellyn Davis play in my head.

Eric Folkerth: 100 percent 100% Which

Kenny Dickson: was a story of somebody who didn't make it. And then, and then that last scene, when they introduced, and now somebody knew Bob, you know,

Eric Folkerth: those would be great films. This film and Llewellyn Davis would be fantastic to see back to back.

Kenny Dickson: Especially if you like folk music, you'd love it.

Kenny Dickson: And if you don't know about folk music, you need to, you need to know, you

Eric Folkerth: need to know the history of it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because it's the American part. Of what becomes rock, basically. I mean, it really is the British, you know, the Beatles, the stones, all that. The American story [00:16:00] tracks through Dylan and the Laura.

Eric Folkerth: That was our American rock music.

Mike Hatch: Yeah, I agree.

Eric Folkerth: Came from that Genesis. Yeah.

Kenny Dickson: Where does folk and how does it combine with. With blues, white blues, black blues, and even with country with Johnny Cash.

Film Audio: I thought you left town already. Well, we loaded out last night. June left for New York with her mama. Pete asked me to stay for the finale today, you know.

Film Audio: Couldn't sleep. Just took a drive. Saw the ocean. That was

Eric Folkerth: an interesting piece and I didn't even know much about that. Johnny Cash hanging out there at Newport. I didn't know that happened. It did happen. That was cool. I went back and looked at some of the You can see the Newport footage up on YouTube.

Eric Folkerth: You can go watch the original. He really did go there and play. I think the genesis of that, so Alan Lomax, we should talk about that name. In the film, Alan Lomax is kind of an, he is the [00:17:00] guy who's really pushing. And I'm going to be honest and know, I don't know whether that's true or not. I do know he was a folk music purist.

Eric Folkerth: Alan Lomax is the guy who went around for decades with his tape recorder and recorded classic American music. You know, he recorded all the old blues men, lead belly all through the south. His recordings. I've actually, I used to have no, a guy worked at the Smithsonian. And I've seen the Lomax Collection, which is in the Smithsonian, these real, real tapes that are still there, and it's a treasure.

Eric Folkerth: It's the history of American music, basically. And so, folk music, I think it'd be fair to say, Used to have a pretty broad understanding. It included African American blue. It was American music, basically. And somebody like Alan Lomax is the reason we even know about it today. If you saw in the film, Pete Seeger, some of those early [00:18:00] white artists were.

Eric Folkerth: pretty, um, well, there's a scene in the movie where, uh, Seeger's doing his sort of, uh, TV show. Yeah. And they had a PBS show and they've got, they've got an old blues guy on there that used to happen all the time. There was a lot of crossover between the blues and folk music. Those were sort of acknowledged to be true American forms of music, basically.

Eric Folkerth: And it seems to me there was a lot of respect that went, I don't, I may be wrong, but I don't think I am. Between those communities. I do think that once rock comes along, there is a feeling that there was sort of an appropriation, appropriation of the, of the music, a bit in rock that happened, folk musicians and blues musicians back in the day did all kind of hang out together.

Eric Folkerth: It really did. And they all, and Woody Guthrie, especially, and Pete Seeger continued that and they, they wanted to ground themselves in that. And you see the great [00:19:00] British bands. Wanting to graft themselves into that, you know, they're being very obsessed to come to America and meet muddy waters Yeah, and meet Howlin wolf and really learn from them.

Kenny Dickson: Yeah, that's powerful

Eric Folkerth: It's a cool film because it kind of shows you that moment in time that just didn't and that all kind of gets wiped away, you know folk music classic folk music sort of Fades away. It's it was kind of goofy. It becomes sort of a mighty wind. You remember? Yeah. Yeah, you know, that's another sir You might yeah, that's true Sort of a little wet kiss to the folk music world, you know, and it sort of Vanishes for a while as rock takes over but the folk music world continues and to this day There are artists who really see themselves as a part of that tradition And these are my friends that, um, they're never really going to be on the radio.

Eric Folkerth: They're never really gonna be, you know, superstars anymore, [00:20:00] but they make good livings, and they write amazing songs, and they are, there's still that line of American music that moves into It's

Mike Hatch: amazing, but you know, it really was a pleasure to watch this. I enjoyed it. I just thought it was just very well done.

Mike Hatch: It was just very interesting to me. It was cool to go back and relive that time. And it was just, it was just a blast to watch. And it was great too. Cause my daughter and my wife enjoyed it as well. So it's kind of for everybody. Film wise,

Kenny Dickson: just the direction. So James Mangold, he did the Johnny Cash, uh, show.

Kenny Dickson: Yeah, he did that. And, uh, so I was wondering if, you know, Could they brought walking in, but he was older and he's older now. He couldn't have been the young one, but yeah, so it's, it was interesting. He has that, he has that, but, but I thought the direction was well, well done, just the right sort of. Uh, of hand and then, you know, you do sort of a way to, when you're going through a time, you know, including the little [00:21:00] moments, you know, when Kennedy got killed.

Kenny Dickson: So you're, you're setting up what time this is, the Cuban Missile Crisis and then

Mike Hatch: they handled that.

Kenny Dickson: Yeah, I don't know if that was, I had heard maybe. So in the film, that's when he and Joe Maez first get together, sort of waiting for the, for the, you know, will the city be here tomorrow and everybody's trying to get out of New York and he says, well, what the heck, we're just going to go play and I'm not sure if that's the first time they hooked up, but I mean, I don't

Eric Folkerth: know.

Kenny Dickson: Yeah. But it, but it again, and it shows, and so that's the, the, the backdrop, all the craziness of the world going on. And yet then you have this music that, you know, as, as a antiphon for that, you know, and uh, so I, I thought he did a good job in that, uh, in the direction and it was just, it was just a fun film.

Kenny Dickson: To watch, as we said, the acting was just stellar all the way.

Eric Folkerth: This film notes, in my opinion, culturally, the first time that something to [00:22:00] this day happens with artists. And that is when they decide to move out of the box that the fans have put them in. Yeah. So, this, again, is an iconic story. As I said, I grew up with this story.

Eric Folkerth: Everybody, you know, In the folk music world talks about this, but, but this is, that's the kernel of this film, right? Dylan going electric, Dylan, Dylan turning his back on traditional folk and deciding to step out of that box. And, uh, we should probably note that it wasn't just at Newport that this was a problem.

Eric Folkerth: There's a pretty famous documentary. And I'm sorry, I don't remember the name of it about, um, Dylan's tour through England after this goes to England. Basically, and they just hate it. Just every show people are screaming at him, yelling at him, you know, saying he's a traitor, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what this points out to us is this dynamic, which to this day happens that every [00:23:00] artist has to wrestle with.

Eric Folkerth: What do I owe to my audience? What do I owe to myself? Where is my art leading me? Am I going to still do the same thing over and over? Is that okay? Do I need to branch out? Do I want to do something totally different and that debate still goes on? But this really is the first time that an artist A popular artist in america did that?

Eric Folkerth: Yeah, so that's another thing which is cool about this story and why it's an interesting story It's still a debate that goes on today. Yeah, and and you still see this you everybody who's been a fan of a band You If you've been a fan of a band over 10, 15 years, eventually they'll put something out and you'll be pissed at them.

Eric Folkerth: I can't, they sold out, man. They did that. I can't believe, well, I used to like them when they were good or blah, blah, blah. Well, this is the same debate that goes on. This is the moment that starts that moment. So, but I just want to make that point that that was another [00:24:00] thing that I couldn't, that I loved about the movie.

Eric Folkerth: Cause I've always had that in my head, that that was the moment and it's awesome to see it in a Hollywood movie.

Kenny Dickson: And you really do experience it. I remember the first time I saw Elton John, I think. There you go. Yeah. Uh was 79, so it was a little bit, you know, after his heyday, but it was at Moody Coliseum.

Kenny Dickson: I

Eric Folkerth: saw that. You saw that was him in Ray Cooper. Ray

Kenny Dickson: Cooper, yeah. I was at that show. Yeah. The back in the USSR too. Oh, it was. It was the best concert I think I've seen. It was one of my first, and I remember talking to people doing say, yeah, I like Elton John. This is 79. Yeah. Oh man, let's say no. I like his old stuff, man.

Kenny Dickson: He's sold out, man. I like his old, you know, it's like

Eric Folkerth: I know. Ridiculous. Right.

Kenny Dickson: You know? And so it's, you know. Yeah. If, if you make it that's right and you, and you last, then this is gonna, is this is gonna happen. But I like the way you put that. Yeah. That you have, what do you owe your fans? Yes. And what do you owe yourself?

Kenny Dickson: Because if you do come out and just force what they don't want to [00:25:00] hear, then you're not respecting them. And this is getting into the faith part.

Eric Folkerth: This is the debate that musicians have though, with themselves. What do I owe my fans? What do I owe myself? Some people don't even ask. Like Dylan, I don't even know that he asked that question.

Eric Folkerth: He just always does whatever the hell he wants to

Kenny Dickson: do. That's right. Including, uh, faith songs,

Eric Folkerth: including a Christian. Yeah. We should remember Dylan has probably had like two or three different eras. He had a Christian era where he had announced that he, and he did a Christian albums and man did that piss fan that pissed the folk music fans, the rock fan.

Eric Folkerth: He was just pissing everybody off. Oh yeah. So. It's, it's an interesting conversation that people have privately and publicly about what, what do I need to do? What needs to be written? What needs to be done now? And do I have to stay in this box? Can I branch out? What's the risk, you know, and, and, and plenty of artists wrestle with it.

Eric Folkerth: We, we were talking about Chicago earlier. That's [00:26:00] certainly what people say about them. It's like, Oh my God, the Terry Cath age, after he died, it was, it sucked, you know, or, you

Mike Hatch: know, David Lee Roth is out and Stanley Hagar is in and all that. Yeah. So we have

Eric Folkerth: this same debate over and over, over and over. And, and people in this generation, I'm confident are having this debate about their favorite artists, but that this is really the first time where that happens, where an artist steps out In a very different way and knows that it's probably going to be controversial, that it's probably going to piss some people off and just decides I'm going to do it anyway.

Mike Hatch: And didn't think twice about it. And it's interesting to you guys, probably like me, you just know, like a Rolling Stone, the song like the back of your hand. And to compare that to some of his earlier stuff, That it is, like you said, really just vocals and guitars. Is it, is it Phil Ramone that had the wall of sound?

Mike Hatch: The wall of sound, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you listen to that. Go out to your car, again, Spotify, Apple Music or whatever. Listen to, like, a Rolling [00:27:00] Stone. I don't think Phil had anything to do with it, but it has that wall of sound to it. If you were able to look at the levels of it, it's just It's flat, the keyboard and guitars, Cooper on the keyboard.

Mike Hatch: It's crazy.

Mike Hatch: It's just interesting. You'd go from, it was almost a one 80, what he did. And that's why I think people were so shocked about it. Yeah. I

Eric Folkerth: can't remember the, um, I meant to do this. There was a, uh, talking to another podcast, radio lab did a podcast many years ago about a Russian composer. In the 1800s who came out with a symphony and i'm sorry, I don't remember which composer it was But it was so dissonant That the [00:28:00] crowd like there was a riot.

Eric Folkerth: Yeah, there was a riot where people threw chairs Thought this was the biggest crap Wow, they'd ever heard you see that

Kenny Dickson: in the myerson Yeah, and now it's like lalapalooza 1818. Yeah, exactly. And i'm,

Eric Folkerth: sorry, I don't remember but this is now considered one of the classic You Symphonies of all time, but it was literally despised because it was so different than what they expected to hear.

Eric Folkerth: And so they did this podcast where they just kind of talked about this, that this is what happens that when there is a new genre, when there's a new, nobody is ever fully unique, there's never been a music. That is fully unique, but everybody, every new genre, every new artist does sort of tweak what's come before.

Eric Folkerth: And sometimes to the point that it challenges the ear challenges, the mind. And you can't even know what you're hearing. It's like, what is happening now? And sometimes people really don't like that. And I think it's not just the old [00:29:00] versus the young, although that's definitely a part of it, but I think it's also, what do we get used to?

Eric Folkerth: What do we get used to hearing and comfortable with? And what are we comfortable with? You know, people are a white guys, our age, you know, tend to smash. Hip hop and say, Oh, it's terrible, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's okay. Well, you know, a lot of people like it. I mean, it's, it's out there. Look at hip hop.

Mike Hatch: There is a foundation of what we're

Eric Folkerth: talking about. Foundation of what we're talking about. A hundred percent. There is a hundred percent. There is. Yeah.

Kenny Dickson: So, well, so you're saying that you need to go back. To Mozart. You think Obama de and you know, he he was just too many notes. Yeah. And too many. And, you know, they wanted the dirts, the duh, the duh.

Kenny Dickson: And, and he wanted something else. And he needed something else. And he had that genius that he, he had to, to, to share that. And, and I think when you're passionate, you, you just have to share it. It's almost like a calling, it's almost like. You know, prophetic preaching. And we've kind of touched on it.

Mike Hatch: We touched on it a little bit, but remember when this change was happening as well, it was around [00:30:00] 1963, 64.

Mike Hatch: I mean, there was a lot going on in our world at that point. And again, you see that referred to throughout the film, you know, the assassination of Kennedy there, there's so much going on at that time that everybody was kind of up, up in arms about everything. And then here we go, Dylan. Oh gosh, he's, you know, so it's, that's the interesting, that's one of the things that I loved about it as well was.

Mike Hatch: Just it happened at that particular time that real

Eric Folkerth: start of the 60s. I think you could what the 60s didn't start in 1960 it started about that time. Yes post kennedy assassination the Vietnam's ramping up and then suddenly you've got this new form of folk rock that's exploding. Oh, yeah,

Kenny Dickson: well, yeah, faith wise, and there's probably others, but the ones that certainly Eric, feel free to jump in if you have, but the thing that got me was this idea and we can talk about it in worship wars is this, should we be pure this idea of purity?

Kenny Dickson: What is pure folk music? What [00:31:00] is not? What is pure? what is real worship? And, you know, I was at a, at a church a couple of churches ago and was leading a contemporary service and one of our persons overheard, uh, married to one of our, our people in the, it was a contemporary service and they were walking behind these people and they, And it was the first time they had heard it and they said, yeah, that was good, but it's not real worship.

Kenny Dickson: And it just, she was crestfallen because for her, that is, I mean, one, her husband was, but that is, and you know, and I've, I've sat in, you know, in rooms with people, you know, uh, it's like arguing, well, it's, it's not traditional. And the other said, yeah, but I don't want to sing songs from guys that have been dead for 300 years.

Kenny Dickson: And, and so what is worship? And anytime you get to that, purity. Yes. Pure worship is then look out. It's, it's trouble. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Folkerth: That is [00:32:00] an absolutely parallel comparison to the movie. I'm sure you, you both experienced this in the local churches. You've been involved in these debates about worship debates about screens.

Eric Folkerth: I mean, heck, I, you know, I, yeah, when I was at North Haven, man, I, We debated screens. Oh my God. You know, by the way, churches had had screens for 15 years by then. Nobody thought about it, but at North Haven, we'd never had screens and we were going to have screen. Oh my Lord, you would have thought, you know, I suggested we do the devil.

Eric Folkerth: Yeah,

Kenny Dickson: well, you do. But the sad thing is, so for me, the formative thing for me was when I got sent to Uh, growing up in a very large church in the middle of Dallas, very, I don't know if you can ever say Methodism has a high church, but very standard traditional big Methodist church. And I go to a small

Eric Folkerth: liturgy,

Kenny Dickson: classic liturgy, big hymns, big Oregon.[00:33:00]

Kenny Dickson: And I go to, uh, what we call a four point charge for Churches in Red River County, uh, Texas, uh, one of those churches, it was just pure heavenly highway hymns, stand up bass, mandolin, guitar, singing in four, three and four parts and I'll fly away in this. And it opened. My, it's like, holy crap, this is amazing.

Kenny Dickson: And, you know, I've heard that and I've heard people try to do it, but this is real. This is who it was. So that, that expanded my understanding and experience of God. That is different. And I never would have had that had I gone there. And then there's some other things, you know, being out there. there, you know, when you're a farming community and we were there, there were droughts the first couple of years and it's like there, you know, here in Dallas, if it doesn't rain, your, your lawn gets dry and you have to water your foundation there, life and death.

Kenny Dickson: Yeah. They, they lose their, their crop. They, they [00:34:00] have to sell their, their livestock. They have to buy it and it really is. So their safety net is their faith. Yep. Whereas when I grew up, you know, blessed with things, it's ultimately our safety net, but it's, there's two or three above that, you know? And so, but, but going there and just having this new way to worship and it was energetic and it was fun and it's very much a part of me.

Kenny Dickson: And whenever I hear, you know, I'll fly away or, or some of these others, it just, It just gets me and it saddens me that people will not, you know, accept that in

Eric Folkerth: themselves up to that.

Kenny Dickson: Yeah. And then on the other hand, then in say contemporary worship using, you know, the other thing for me that I've come across, cause I really like to use secular music that have, that has sacred music, you know, anything and people not being willing to try to make that connection.

Kenny Dickson: It limits God, it limits their faith, limits our [00:35:00] understanding and expression of who God is. Yeah. You can prefer whatever way of worship, but to say, Oh, that's not real worship or why do we have to do that? Or that's not why I come to this church. I just came from a meeting where we had these discussions two hours ago.

Kenny Dickson: Maybe I'm a little bit on top, but, but it's, it's just sad. Yeah. Yeah. For me,

Mike Hatch: I think what it is is just being open minded that you just need to be open minded and you guys mentioned that you saw Elton John and for me, I think at least for rock music that really opened my eyes and it was really sort of the dawn of that was grunge.

Mike Hatch: It was early 90s. I was in college and We just got, uh, Nirvana's album in and I know that Nirvana did stuff before then, but I saw the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Pearl Jam and Smashing Pumpkins just to see, especially Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, I could, whatever, I don't care. But just to see that it had that sort of birth of grunge was really cool to see that.

Mike Hatch: And there, there were a lot of people as, Oh, we don't know. You've got the flannel shirts and [00:36:00] oh, there's Lazy Rock. These guys were talking like this and singing like this seriously from Seattle and all that. But if you kept your mind open, you go, this is a new kind of rock. And this all goes back to the foundation of what you were just talking about.

Mike Hatch: And again, circling back to this film of having that Foundation of this is where everything was built on top of it, right? And all these other rooms were created in this house that was created on this foundation of folk, right? Folk rock and and blues and everything.

Eric Folkerth: Yeah, the the whole Worship wars music thing is fascinating to think about in conjunction with these great.

Eric Folkerth: Well, I mean, that's what we call it They call it the worship wars and You know, Kenny, your experience was like mine. I grew up in a large United Methodist church here in town and we sang out of the United Methodist hymnal. We probably had 20, 30 hymns that seemed like we sang all the time, you know, and they were very sort of classic middle of the road.

Eric Folkerth: United Methodist [00:37:00] hymns. And then like you, I went off to a first little church appointment out in a Copeville, Texas, and they saying out of the Cokesbury hymnal, which I had never even heard of. I literally had never heard of it. So I walk into this church, that's all they have. They have the Cokesbury hymnal.

Eric Folkerth: It's like, what is this? I know the word Cokesbury, but I don't know this hymnal. And so that was a whole other genre of songs that, Oh my Lord, did they love those songs? So it's fascinating. We do seem to get set in our, our, our taste. I think there's some, I wish I could remember exactly where I learned this.

Eric Folkerth: Yeah. But there, there is a theory that adults, musical and art. Style gets kind of frozen by about the time you're 25. I think that's about it And you really it does seem to be hard for adults to break out of that you can and Your life is probably a lot richer [00:38:00] if you do But we get set and that's where these worship wars come from because people get set they say what can exactly what you just said It's not church if we don't do this, it's not church if we don't sing this and that's just not true I had the blessing I you know, because I grew up in this mainline tradition I wasn't really much into contemporary Christian music And then I got sent to a church for one year where they had a contemporary service and I played guitar So I'm suddenly I'm learning a hundred songs that I'd never known before, singing them in worship.

Eric Folkerth: And it's not really my jam. And I probably haven't really done much of it since, but I enjoyed learning about it. Sure. Um, again, but you have an open mind.

Mike Hatch: That's a bit of it.

Eric Folkerth: That's a little repetitive. I mean, again, it's not really my jam, but yeah, I mean, especially in that category, in that setting, rather, it was obvious it was very important to them.

Eric Folkerth: So, um, This is one of the things that makes conversation about [00:39:00] religion even more difficult because not only are we talking about theology, but we're often talking about this, even the style of worship. Do we have a liturgy? Do we have written prayer? Do we sing out of a hymnal? Do we sing off the top of our head?

Eric Folkerth: Do we sing praise songs? What, what are we doing? And we don't all do that the same. We're all doing that differently. So we really do have different cultural forms of Christianity that are quite different from each other. And I don't, I don't know that outside the church, people are often raised in one of those.

Eric Folkerth: strands, and they just assume that's the way they all are, and it's really not true.

Kenny Dickson: It can be translated. I mean, that's one way, and that's more of an experiential way of worship. You know, we get set in that, but that does lead to getting set and rigid in our theology. To where we can't even consider other things, you know, Jesus went electric,

Eric Folkerth: right?

Eric Folkerth: In a sense, Jesus [00:40:00] was going, he was going electric, Judaism going, yeah, and he was saying,

Kenny Dickson: no, yes, you can't just say, well, we never heal on the Sabbath. We don't heal on the Sabbath. And so it gets, it's not just an experiential thing. It is. It starts out with that. But if we're unwilling to grow there, then we're unwilling to continue to study.

Kenny Dickson: We're unwilling to continue to think. We're unwilling to say, do what, what I've believed for 30 years. Is that really the way it is? And should I reconsider that? And if we're not willing to do that, we're probably not. So, so being open to at least trying new experiences of worship or music, whichever, then allows us maybe to get used to trying things that are certainly much more important than theological reflection and theological understanding and theological identity.

Kenny Dickson: Um, so this can provide a way to, to practice that and not doing it just, it, it consolidates and freezes us in ways that [00:41:00] are, that are really more important, I think, for us than just how we worship or what music we listen to, but who we are as people who we are. As Christians could get frozen there

Eric Folkerth: to push this point a little more.

Eric Folkerth: Wouldn't you say you see that in the whole New Testament story through the gospels and especially in acts, the whole debate is, are we going to do this religion thing the way we've always done it? Or are we doing it in this new way? Well, you gotta get circumcised. If you're

Kenny Dickson: gonna, you know, you, well, you, you have to be circumcised.

Kenny Dickson: That's the

Eric Folkerth: going electric. That's the, that's the purity, right? That's the purity in, in the Bible. The purity was holding to the Jewish law. You got a hold of the Jewish law. Well, no. Maybe, do you? Maybe not. And so that's the debate. That's the debate that happens in the book acts, but

Kenny Dickson: E. But even people that were calling themselves Christian.

Kenny Dickson: Yep. And following Christ who went against a lot of that, they, they fell back, they fell back into that because they're unwilling to think beyond. And again, it's, it's comfortable. Yep. Faith is not anything about being [00:42:00] comfortable. I mean, you know, we, we know that story though. Yeah.

Eric Folkerth: It's a human story that we seem to always do this.

Eric Folkerth: Yeah. Always that change in our identity

Kenny Dickson: becomes so tied into that. And. The idea of ownership, I think that is another thing. Ownership of what, what I believe, what you should be believing, what I like to hear. And of course, what I like to hear, you need to like to hear because, you know,

Eric Folkerth: going to make you listen to this record.

Eric Folkerth: Yeah. Yeah. I used to do that to people. Oh my God. It's like, you got to hear this. Got to hear this, make them sit down and listen to a whole record. So embarrassing,

Mike Hatch: but sometimes it's cool. There are times that friends of mine have done that to me, you know, they'll send me a song, text me a song and I'll just be like,

Eric Folkerth: okay.

Eric Folkerth: No, I mean, I'm the whole record. Oh, okay. All right. That might be torture. It was a little, it was a little much. Yeah. It was a little much.

Mike Hatch: So Kenny, let me ask you something. This goes back to the series that I don't know if we had here, but I know that you did at one of your Bible studies and this might be pushing it, but do you think that Dylan is a Jesus figure?

Mike Hatch: Is a Jesus figure? Yeah. Christ figure. Um,

Kenny Dickson: in the film or just in, [00:43:00] just in general or even in

Mike Hatch: the film as

Kenny Dickson: well. What do you think? Yeah, I think. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You could. There's a lot of people. Christ figure. He comes in from Minnesota and he has a new way of doing thing. And again, Jesus experienced, he knew Jewish law.

Kenny Dickson: He knew that, but yet he knew where it was not speaking to people. in a way. They changed it around to make it. Yeah. And it was becoming, you know, speaking for Jesus and Bob Dylan. So, you know, I may not, you may not want to drive home with me, but, but, you know, he, he, he's, uh, you know, seeing that, that, that this needs to happen.

Kenny Dickson: And so, yeah, I think very much he could be a cross figure in a lot of ways.

Eric Folkerth: This was in the, you and I talked about this on the way up here. This is literally the gospel lesson. We're recording this on a Sunday afternoon, Luke chapter four. This is literally a part of that story where Jesus goes to his hometown in Nazareth.

Eric Folkerth: He preaches the hometown crowd loves it. So this is like the tradition. This is like Dylan and his [00:44:00] traditional folk era. Then Jesus says, wait a minute. I forgot to mention this also applies to foreigners. This applies to people from Sedan and applies to people from Syria. God sent Elijah to Syria, Sedan and Elisha to the Syrian.

Eric Folkerth: And at that point, the crowd gets furious. They go from adoring Jesus, furious with him. And it says, the text says they want to throw him off the cliff. So I think, Mike, to answer your point there, yes, Dylan is a modern example of that same thing where the crowd goes from adoring, and you see it in the movie, where they're adoring to furious.

Eric Folkerth: And this is what happens with our faith when we get too comfortable with our particular way of doing things. And I think for me, especially in this time, this message of including the outsider and the foreigner, that's in that gospel [00:45:00] lesson. That's why the hometown crowd gets mad at him because Jesus says, no, it's not just for us.

Eric Folkerth: It's for everybody. It's for this foreigner in Syria and Sedan and it the text literally says they want to kill him and they try to kill him And he luckily gets away. Yeah,

Kenny Dickson: but that's the very point of Israel is to be the light to the nation supposed to be God reaching out to Sidon, I would say Sidon, anyway, uh, Assyria, and you know, that's their, it's there, it's in front of them, and they're maintained as they want it.

Kenny Dickson: No, we want to be the hometown of the big prophet. We want, we want to be special, and, and that's, we want to be the

Eric Folkerth: Newport Folk Festival,

Kenny Dickson: yeah, that's not our identity, and so, yeah, yeah, he's, there's very much, very, there's certainly Christ figure aspects to Dylan in the film, and And then, and then his reality and what he did for music for the world, Eric, thank you so much

Mike Hatch: for coming in, man.

Mike Hatch: I appreciate it. I was really looking forward to this because I knew you'd be able to put your own spin on it and especially your own [00:46:00] knowledge and your expertise is kind of what I would say with this particular one. Absolutely. Almost more than anything that we've had in the past. I know that. The Canyon one, you certainly had, you're, you're feeling with get back when you came in for that as well.

Mike Hatch: But this one, I was like, this is, this is his jam. This is literally people that

Eric Folkerth: I knew or have a Kevin Bacon number of one for. Oh, really? Oh, wow. Of course. Of course. Ooh, now I touch it. Yeah, right, really. Yeah.

Kenny Dickson: Very good. Well, thank you again. Yeah. Thanks man. Pleasure.

Film Audio: Come gather around people wherever you roam. And admit that the waters around you have grown. And accept it that soon you'll be drenched to the bone. If your time to you is worth saving, then you better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone. For the times, they are a changin Oh, oh.[00:47:00]

Kenny Dickson: Faith spotting is a production of Crossroads Faith and Film. Some material is not property of Faith Spotting, but utilized in the Fair Use Guidelines. And thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week.

Eric Folkerth Profile Photo

Eric Folkerth

Sr. Pastor, Kessler Park United Methodist Church, Dallas TX

Eric Folkerth is the Senior Pastor of Kessler Park United Methodist Church in Dallas TX. Eric has served churches in the Dallas area for over 30 years. In addition to serving as a pastor with a passion for missions and justice, Eric has a passion for music and especially folk music and is a singer / songwriter.

Eric has been a finalist at the South Florida Folk Festival Competition, and the 5th Street Festival. He was a semi-finalist at the Wildflower Festival competition. His songs have won Honorable Mention in the Billboard Songwriter Contest, the Great American Song Contest, and have been part of a United Nations project, called "New Songs for Peace."

He's has shared the stage with the many contemporary songwriters, such as David Wilcox, Joan Baez, Tom Prasada-Rao, Cary Cooper, Terri Hendrix, James McMurtry, Jana Stanfield, The Burns Sisters, Rachel Bissex, Peter Mayer, Bethany Yarrow, Rhett Butler, Beth Wood, Brad Thompson, Elizabeth Wills, Bill Nash and Annie Benjamin.

Eric is a founding member of "Connections," a "cover band" of Methodist ministers and layfolks whose shows have raise money for charity. The band plays free-show tributes to classic artists like Dan Fogelberg, The Eagles, Chicago, Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder, James Taylor, Tom Petty, Jackson Browne, Elton John, the Doobie Brothers, and dozens more. 100 percent of a "love offering" goes to support two worthy charities. The band has now played more than 50 shows for tens of thousands of fans, and raised more than $360,000.

Eric… Read More

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