Faithspotting "Exhibiting Forgiveness"

Faithspotting Episode 104 Exhibiting Forgiveness 10-18-24

Mike: Definitely. So this is what you've been waiting for.

How are you, man? I'm doing pretty good. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's, it's an honor talking to you. I'm a straightforward guy and I'll tell you, I don't have the tendency to interview folks that I don't believe in their product. So man, just the fact that you put together this film.

And you shared your story, and I swear I'm not sucking up to you, man. I'm, I'm totally sincere. I really truly enjoyed it. Okay, the cast, the acting. Kenny is kind of my podcast co host here.

Kenny: So, Titus, I, I agree, or as, as Mike had said earlier, I've been Looking forward to talking to you ever since I saw the film.

And, um, it's, it's an amazingly powerful film. And it struck me in many ways. And the first thing I want to say, so I'm also a, I mean, not a Methodist pastor serving in the Lutheran Church. And obviously forgiveness and grace is something, you know, we Talk about a little bit. This film and you in this film, through this film, gave me a powerful new way to think and experience and dwell, discern, struggle with forgiveness.

A lot of times it's just a word and we're, we know we're supposed to do it, but we know we can't always do it. And then what? Give a new way in a, a real way to experience and to grapple with, with what forgiveness is and what it does.

Titus: All right. Yeah. So, you know, if I'm honest. And I will be, um, um, that is a reality that I experienced through the writing process.

I wasn't aware where I would come out on the other side of all of this. I started this process because I wanted to share something with my sons. I have two sons, 17 and 15 years old, and they are, my oldest is about to go off to college next year. For his whole life. I've been telling him, you know, I'll tell you a little more when you're older.

I'll tell you a little more when you're older. He's interested in to know like how his father's life was compared to his. And I say it's really different. My relations with my father is really different than our relationship. And so as he's going off to college next year, it just felt like this is the right time To begin to have that conversation, you know, to be a little bit more open and talk about it.

This is, this is me sort of sending my son off into the world and trying to make sure that he's not carrying the same kind of baggage that I was carrying. And so as I, as I sat down to, to write, I wasn't writing the script. I was just writing. The narrative of my experience, when it turned into a script, that's when things started to shift, uh, in many ways, you would think that writing and turning it into the script would be the part where, you know, fiction would take over, but there's an interesting thing about writing script, and it's an interesting thing about writing for a character.

You have to ask yourself the question, why is this character doing this?

That's not something I asked of my father when I was a young man. That's not something I had the capacity to ask when I was a young man. When I was a young man, if you had asked me, I would have told you that my father is the villain of my narrative. And it was through this process of writing that I actually realized he is not.

My father is as much a victim of the circumstances as anybody in this film. And I realized that he was doing what was talked to him. Now, this is not to excuse it. This is not to say that it wasn't bad. I don't, I don't believe in that, but it gave me a compassion for my father. That is the writing process.

Gave me a compassion for my father, um, that I hadn't had before. And I, I wasn't expecting when I started.

Mike: So let me ask you a follow up question to that. And I think it's interesting and kind of fascinating that you You had the catharsis through the writing process. I would assume, obviously you're there, you're directed this and all of that, was there a particular part when you were filming this that you felt just as much catharsis or maybe something hit you emotionally while you were filming it.

Maybe one of the scenes, I mean, for Kenny and I just looking from the outside in, obviously not experiencing by any means what you did. I know for me, everything from mowing the lawn to hurting the foot and stepping on all of that. For me, from the outside, that would be hard for me to film if I went through that.

But was there any other part maybe that we would be like, wow, you really. Felt that and that brought you back.

Titus: Yeah, I mean, um, I've talked about this a little bit and I think uh, I think it's a I think the best place to start with. This is actually just about the craft of acting I think for a lot of folks they think acting is Pretending is somebody gives you a script and you pretend to be something you pretend To be hurt you pretend to be happy you pretend to be sad and for great actors.

That's not at all what it is. It's not pretending. Um, for great actors, they are actually loaning their bodies and their emotions to these characters. And so they're going through these things. When we were upstairs and we were shooting that scene in the gallery where Leron is talking to his father, that scene didn't happen in real life in a gallery that happened in my studio.

My father showed up at my studio unannounced. And we had more or less that conversation and in real life, what happened was I kind of brushed myself off and was like, you know what, whatever, I got to get back to work. You know, I'm still hearing my father's voice in my head. We got work to do. We don't have time to think about this.

Stop crying, whatever. Let's do what we need to do. But when I watched Andre manifest my experience. In front of the camera, it broke me. I just started sobbing. Um, I could have compassion for him in a way that I couldn't have compassion for for myself. We had developed a relationship and I didn't want to see my friend go through that.

So I now see that actors are heroic in their willingness to loan themselves for the purpose of telling important stories.

Mike: Do you mind if I steal that for my kids? Because what you just said at the beginning Like my film kids, they, it's just, it's genius because again, even like theater folks, they're like, yeah, I'm just acting, I'm just pretending, but the true acting is when you actually interject yourself and that what you said, do you mind if I steal that?

Is that cool?

Titus: Absolutely. Oh my gosh, man. I mean, I really learned that from, from Andre Holland. I can see why it's a great

Mike: guy to learn

Titus: it from. Yeah, we spent a lot of time together when we started working on this project. Um, he knew that he was going to have to learn how to paint. So for three months, he came to my studio and I taught him how to paint.

Um, I didn't want to find myself in a situation where I was, uh, I was limited. compositionally because I could only show the hands, right? Or I could only show the face. Um, and so there's moments in there where you see Andre and we can do a nice wide shot, get that whole painting in there because, uh, he actually spent the time he put in.

Kenny: Part of, again, this new aspect of understanding forgiveness also relates to your, your painting and your, your, your, your purpose in painting and that it's the dislodged entrenched narrative. And, you know, I, I watched, uh, shut up and paint and, and I've read some of that. It is, it's that part that for me, forgiveness in some ways is dislodging.

Titus (2): Hmm.

Kenny: an entrenched narrative and maybe changing the narrative that helps us in the present as well as the future. And just so I was thinking this was you doing on in film what you've done so powerfully in other art

Titus: mediums. I mean, that's a really, that's actually a really great observation. And I think, in fact, the moment where it comes together most is, is, is, you know, spoiler alert here, is at the end of the, is at the end of the film.

We've seen Tyrell wake up, um, in the film, and, and at the end of the film, this will be the third time he wakes up. By the way, When you watch this film a second or third time, you're going to see like so, so much symbolism that is there, but he wakes up for the third time. And this third time he wakes up, he's not in fear.

He's not panting. He's not breathless. He wakes up calm. And in front of him, he wakes up in a studio. In front of him is this, this painting. And this painting, of course, is Is that moment of trauma, that thing that has come to symbolize the conflict between him and his father and and the brokenness that has followed him from his childhood, and he's sitting there and he's looking at that painting, he gets up and he about to walk out the studio.

He gets right to the door and something calls him back. He comes back in front of the painting. And he looks for a moment, and what does he do? He picks up a razor blade, and he removes that child. from that moment of trauma. Now this is a this is a strategy that happens in therapy. A therapist might say to you, let's let's think about that moment of trauma who could have been there to to protect you in that moment.

And maybe you say, you know, you imagine the therapist might ask you to imagine who could have been in that room with you who could have protected you in that moment. Now I want you to bring that person in your mind's eye. I want you to bring that person in the room with you. Now, maybe that person is your older brother, or maybe that person is your father, or maybe that person for you is, is, you know, Jesus, whoever, or maybe that person is your adult self.

And so in that moment, that's what's happening. Tyrell is re entering that moment of trauma as his adult self and rescuing that child from that moment, thereby stopping him from having to repeat the cycle in his head again and again. And what does he do with that child? He places that child in a in his looking chair, the very same chair that we start the movie in.

He's placing him there because that is the place where inspiration comes to him when he's sitting in in the studio and and symbolically saying that this rescue child will now He's a director of my creative future.

Mike: Giving me chills today, man. This is just what I needed. I appreciate this. Um, you already established it.

It was a very quick comment at the very beginning of our, our interview that you are also a movie freak, a movie man. That's into movies. Okay. So I've got to ask you about this art gallery. Kate Capshaw walks in, take me from there. Holy crap. I just got to hear it from, from your mouth. What I've heard.

Titus: I think you're talking about, um,

Mike: Certain guy, just a little guy in Hollywood.

You know, he just, he's done a couple of films.

Titus: He's done a couple of films. I think what happened was I started a not for profit called Next Haven, um, NXT, HVN, and we support young artists and help them advance their careers. We give them a little bit of money. We give them studio space. We give them housing.

We give them a curriculum. Of the business of art. And we also help have them work with high school students so that young people are learning the craft of art from people who are just a little bit ahead of them. So Kate Capshaw came to visit Next Haven and she went through and she thought it was really lovely.

And honestly, to my surprise, her foundation. Gave us a lot of money,

Titus (2): um,

Titus: to continue doing the work, um, that, that we're doing now, people don't know this kid. People know Kate as a, um, as an actor, of course, but Kate is a painter. Um, so when Kate came to my studio, we just sat around and geeked out about paint and material.

I was like, what kind of canvas do you use? Oh, I use linen. Okay. What kind of paint do you use? I use old hollocks. Um, so we were just like geeking out about this stuff going back and forth. And I, I asked her, or she asked me. You know, what are these paintings about? Like, what is this? There's such a narrative in these paintings.

Titus, this feels different from what you've done before. They feel cinematic. That's what she said. And I, I, I picked up the script. I had just printed out the script and I signed it and I gave it to her. And I said, you know, take a look. Thank you so much for doing the studio with me. I appreciate it. Um, you know, it was fun.

We had a great time. About 24 hours later, she calls me and she said, Titus. This script is really powerful. You, you have something special here. Um, and she said, do you, do you mind if I share it, um, with my husband? And I said, um, Yeah, go ahead. I don't mind. I don't mind. I don't mind at all. Um, for those of you who don't know, her husband is Steven Spielberg.

And then Steven read the script in about 48 hours and got back to me. When we speak, we're always, it's always the three of us on the phone together. Um, and when they called me back, Kate and Steven, um, were adamant, um, that I don't let Hollywood mess up this film. They were adamant, Kate and Steve, both were adamant.

They said, this is the kind of thing that Hollywood breaks. And you're going to have to fight for this. Um, but I got to tell you, having, having Kate and Steven behind me and knowing that this great actor, great artists, great filmmaker, great director, obviously one of the greatest. Believed in what I was doing gave me the strength to fight back.

There were plenty of times where, where Hollywood wanted to do a thing in particular way and casting, for example, um, I had to fight for my cast. Um, now people recognize that this is an extraordinary cast and extraordinary collection, uh, uh, ensemble, but, um, John, Earl jokes who plays the Ron, for example, who is superb, absolutely heard, um, is a stage actor that, that folks hadn't heard of.

And so, you know, Hollywood said we can get somebody famous. Why don't we get somebody famous? And that just is not a concern of mine. And so, um, my casting director, Kim Coleman, uh, she sent me the self tape of this guy named John Earl jokes. And I watched it. And the first time I watched it. It brought tears to my eyes and this is just him recording himself running lines.

And I thought, that's my guy. That's my guy. And I talked to, and I'm going to keep saying it this way. I talked to Hollywood and Hollywood said, Hollywood said, no, no, no, no, no, no. Pick the famous guy that will get you the money. If you really want the money to do this, you need to pick the famous guy. And I thought to myself.

You can tell me a lot of things, but you can't tell me who's going to be able to play my father. I think I know my father a little bit better than you know my And so I, um, I called a friend of mine who, who, uh, works in the stage world. And that's where John comes from. He's a stage actor. He worked with August Wilson, August Wilson tapped him, and he was in several of his plays.

But what happened with John and very few people know this. John was doing August Wilson plays and things were going really great. Um, and then his wife died, and when his wife died, John had to take care of his three kids. He had, he had a, uh, a child that was 22 months old when his wife died, and so he disappeared, um, for a little bit.

He did a small thing here, a small thing there, but his priority was taking care of his children, and you've got to respect that. So when, when I stumbled on John, Two things were worth strange to me. One, there was something familiar about him and it wasn't until later that I realized I had seen him on the stage.

When I was at Yale, I went to Yale for graduate school. When I was at Yale, um, August Wilson was doing a residency at Yale and he was Working out radio call. So I saw John form on stage and I didn't even I didn't even click to me until until much later. But I got his number from a friend since since Hollywood wouldn't give me the number.

I got his number from a friend. I called him and I said, I think you're extraordinary. I'm flying to Chicago this weekend. Are you around? He said, I'll be there. I went to him. I stayed there with him for two days. We just ran lines. I filmed him on my phone. I came back and I told Hollywood, this is our guy.

This is our guy. And they said, you're, you're, you're not going to let this one go. Are you? And I said, absolutely

Mike: not tight. Is this is something I ask everybody. At the end of all of our conversations, all of our interviews, I always back it up with, uh, Netflix stole it from me, but that's just another bad story.

Um, knowing that you love films, knowing, you know, that that's part of you and who you are, uh, what I want for you to do is to think, I'm not going to say your favorite movie, although it could be your favorite movie, but think about a movie That has made you who you are. That is in the fiber of your being.

That you look to. And maybe even before you even think about it. Or when you're least thinking about it. It hits you and maybe inspires you. Maybe disgusts you. Maybe makes you feel something. But I want you to kind of think and reach. Into what that movie could be. 

Titus: Yeah, I mean, can I give you, Can I give you a few?

Please, be my guest. Okay. Um, there's a, there's a beautiful film called drive my car. I don't know if you've ever seen this film. Um, it's a foreign film, but it is absolutely gorgeous. And the thing that that film taught me is that Film can be a painting. Uh, some of the some of the shots in this film are they?

There's no other way to describe them besides painterly. Uh, the director knows that we do not have to have a close up for everything. Um, sometimes Us sitting in the wide shot, being a little bit distant from the characters helped us understand what they're going through emotionally. So I absolutely love that.

There's another film that's called Baba Duke, which is a, which is a horror film that I love. And the reason why I love it is because the monster is not just some big growly thing. The monster is actually a metaphor for loss and mourning and the way that when someone you lose in your life, Is gone. You are always having a part of that pain with you for the rest of your life and you manage that and you have to find ways to manage that, um, that loss.

Um, so that's another one. I love, uh, do the right thing. Um, is a film that was like one of one of my top five for sure. And the reason for that is it's prophetic. Um, that film actually predicted so much. And if you watch it now, you recognize you recognize how ahead of his time Spike Lee was actually for for that film, there's another small film that's called Fresh, which very few people know about.

It's about a young boy who grows up in New York City, and his father was not the best father. We'll put it at that. But I watched that film as a kid and realized I realized that there was something of me in that kid, and I saw myself reflected a little bit in him. The story is slightly different, but it made me see film as a powerful thing that could speak to young people.

So that was another one. There's another film called Nine Days, which I don't know if you've seen it, but it is Absolutely beautiful. And it is. It is a sort of metaphoric analogy of being chosen, being given life, what it means to be given life. And it is such a philosophically deep film. I mean, I just I love, love, love that film.

And then the last film that I will say is Basquiat. And the reason I love the film Basquiat, I mean, let's say Jeffrey Wright is just extraordinary, of course, but It was the first time I saw a black painter on film. And I saw that movie when I had made the decision to become a painter. And so to see Jeffrey Wright on the screen, doing the thing that I wanted to do made me believe that it was possible to the point where I moved a VCR and a television into my garage.

Put the tape in and just played it on repeat and just painted. And that was one of the things that gave me the faith that like, okay, okay. Oh, I can do this. This guy did this. So I could go on, but I figured that's probably a good place.

Mike: Well, so there's, there's two things. Cause I'm going to let Kenny wrap this up.

Cause I know exactly what Kenny's going to say. Very quick story I got to tell you. One of the honors in my life was to meet Giancarlo Esposito, Mr. Buggin Out Himself. And it was funny, everybody else coming up talking to him, Oh man, I love you Gus Fring and all that. I go up and was like, I loved you and do the right thing.

He's like, Oh my gosh! Somebody remembers me from that!

Titus: Yeah, man. So good. We, we owe Spike Lee a debt of gratitude. He, he tapped a lot of people that now we go, Oh, that's, oh, that's Denzel. Oh, that's yeah. I mean, Spike was working with those people really, really early.

Mike: Absolutely. I'm gonna let Kenny wrap it up because I know what you're going to say.

Go ahead.

Kenny: Well, a couple of things. I love driving my car. That was a stunning film. And it was rightfully up for Academy Award. Yeah. Nine Days is one of my favorite films because of the last, five years or 10 years easily. We were able, thankfully, uh, to, to interview Edson Oda when it came out. And just one of the, one of the highlights, I guess, of our podcasting show, we talked about his favorite, uh, share the films.

Do you remember that he said were his

Mike: favorite? Well, one that I, that I, I remember one of them specifically, and it's, it's been more people than we can count. Dead Poets Society.

Titus: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Mike: And he came up with that one. I forgot

Titus: about that one. Yes.

Mike: So, especially as a teacher, man, I'm sitting in my classroom right now, and there have been a couple of times that I've, you know, said to the kids, because I teach, you know, broadcast news is my big thing, that I say to them, I was like, you need to think differently.

You need to look at the world differently. And I'll say to them, have you seen, you know, Dead Poets Society? And they're like, no. I said, get up on this desk. They go, what are you saying, Ash? Do you have them get on the desk? You bet I do. Come on, man. Here. I have to get on their desk and they got Max over here and everything.

Check this

Titus: out. Captain, my captain.

Mike: Yes. Captain, my captain. And you need to look at the world in a different way. But that's so cool that you did say that. That was one of your favorite films because that was one of ours. And yeah. We also,

Kenny: with him, just the other week, we had a five minute discussion about some of the faith elements of Pulp Fiction.

Yeah. Um.

Titus (2): Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Kenny: yeah,

Titus: yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's what

Kenny: we really enjoyed that. And, um, your, uh, your film is just studying. I saw I saw a trailer for it. I was in the theater this weekend and I trailer. Ironically, it was during I was. I was watching going to watch the substance. And so I'm curious, you know, that's that's the film, sort of the body horror film with Denny Moore and very explicit, [00:46:00] very afterwards.

I went, why was that? You know, usually you try to have. For the other, we don't get organically, you can make an idea, you know, about even when we don't do what, when we don't do forgiveness, when we, when we don't do redo those narratives, you know, those, those horrible things happen. That, that's the only reason I can guess.

But um,

Titus (2): yeah.

Kenny: It's again, and I want to, I'm going to be pushing folks in my church to see this and, um, hopefully the distribution will have theaters near us where we can do that. If not, we'll try to get in and show at the church at some time.

Titus: Well, what I'll say to you is, um, Um, we're definitely in Texas, and we do have a pretty wide distribution on this.

Um, and if you go to, if you're curious about where it's playing, if you go to our website, we actually now have a button on our website that allows you to click if you want to do, um, Uh, group tickets or theater buyouts or things for your church so you can bring a group of people and it will also let you know where,  um, where it's playing in your area.

So, um, uh, yeah, it's my, my mother, uh, she was, uh, God, I'm trying to remember the movie that she went to go see. Forge. Um, she went to go see the film Forge and, um, and my trailer played before and, uh, and she was, she was literally texting me in the movie theater. I just, I just saw your trailer. It's like, mom, don't do that.

That's rude. That's rude. Don't come on. Turn off your light. Put your phone away.

Mike: Oh, it's going to get kicked out. It's great. So Titus, I know we need to go, but man, this has been so much freaking fun. This has been a blast. It

Titus: was great.

Mike: I really truly appreciate your time and thank you for making such a great film.

Please do not stop. I hope you have more stuff on the back burner. Please. I do.

Titus: I got a couple of things in mind.